材料人專訪John B. Goodenough丨要敢于在交流中坦然暴露出自己的無知

John B. Goodenough（約翰·班寧斯特·古迪納夫）目前為美國德州大學奧斯汀分校，機械工程系教授，著名固體物理學家，是鈷酸鋰、錳酸鋰和磷酸鐵鋰正極材料的發明人，鋰離子電池的奠基人之一，被業界稱為“鋰電之父”。他對材料科學與技術，特別是鋰離子電池領域做出了重要貢獻。通過研究化學、結構以及固體電子/離子性質之間的關系來設計新材料解決材料科學問題。更多介紹請見文末！

近日，鋰電池之父，美國德州大學奧斯汀分校機械工程系教授John B. Goodenough接受了材料人的采訪，我們對近期教授的幾項工作以及他對鋰電池發展和中國科研的看法做了采訪，以下是詳細內容：

材料人網：您如何看待鋰離子電池的未來？它會被您的最新研究成果取代嗎？

JBG：我認為目前的鋰離子電池三年內會被不產生鋰枝晶的鋰金屬電池取代，代替我們現在用的石墨負極鋰離子電池。

材料人網：超級電池在應用到電動車之前，還需做出哪些改進？

JBG：電動車用電池首先必須是安全價廉的，而且要高倍率充放電的情況下體積能量密度高、使用壽命長。我認為Braga玻璃電解質能夠實現所有以上愿景，但是高壓下低電阻正極材料尚處于驗證和測試階段。此外，以在集流體上沉積鋰金屬做負極的電池容量需要進一步的評估。

材料人網：您的超級電池會成為您職業生涯最后的研究成果嗎？

JBG：我希望我還能再干幾年，我們還有很多東西需要探索。

材料人網：在您研究出陰極之后，您認為還要多久才能實現電池的大規模生產？您可否預見一下未來的困難？

JBG：我認為三年內電池就能實現大規模量產。

材料人網：您94歲高齡仍在努力工作，您的動力是什么？

JBG：科研探索真的十分有趣，21世紀仍面臨著很多毀滅性的挑戰需要被戰勝。

材料人網：您是怎么開始電池技術相關的研究的？

JBG：我是在1969年接觸到電化學 跟電池的，當時我應邀負責福特公司1967年發明的鈉硫電池項目，就是使用固體陶瓷電解質和熔化電極的那種電池。我非常想找到一種比福特鈉-β-鋁更好的鈉固體電解質，通過與Henry Hong的合作，我們發明了鋯磷硅酸鹽，也就是現在的NASICON鈉超離子導體。之后在1970年爆發了第一次能源危機，美國國會認為我的研究與空軍實驗室的要求不符，因此我決定放棄過渡金屬氧化物轉而研究能源材料，并接受了去英國牛津大學當無機化學教授的邀請。

材料人網：您是怎樣激發學生創造力的？

JBG：并不是簡單地說是我在如何啟發學生，而是作為領導，必須對他的研究領域充滿熱情，不能因為研究成果而變得自負，要平等地看待每個與他合作的人，當別人取得成功時，要樂意去贊賞他們。我們可能會在學術上是競爭對手，但是在生活中卻不是這樣，要就事論事。

材料人網：您高中是學文科的，本科學的是數學跟物理，研究生又轉學了化學與工程，為什么您要換專業呢？您的經歷給您的研究帶來了怎樣的幫助？您希望您的學生換專業嗎？

JBG：在二戰之前，我本來是文科生，擇業十分費時。后來二戰爆發，我參了軍，停止了找工作的糾結，也就是這個時候我下定決心，如果有機會讀研，我就要選擇物理專業。在研究生學習期間，我立志要成為固態物理學家而非核物理學家，在畢業時，我意識到我還沒有做好當物理教授的準備，因此我來到了一家工程實驗室工作，這個工作要求我研究怎樣在亞鐵磁的尖晶石中實現B-H磁滯回線，而亞鐵磁的尖晶石是不能像鐵磁合金那樣卷成一個很薄的帶子的。正是這份工作把我帶進了磁學和過度金屬氧化物這個領域，使我產生了學習過度金屬化合物d電子的興趣，這是要與化學家一起工作的。正如我前面說的，在1970年我被迫改變了我的研究興趣，我成了無機化學實驗室的固態化學教授。就在我快從英國退休時， 德克薩斯大學奧斯汀分校邀請我去做工程首席教授，這樣我就有機會繼續我的材料工作了。 我的成果要歸功于機遇，合作，優秀的同事，還有運氣。直覺固然是以經驗為基礎，但是也要聽聽內心的想法，要敢于在同他人的交流之中坦然地暴露出自己的無知，要對別人的想法和生命的意義保持好奇心，這會成為思想的源泉和成功的基礎。我鼓勵學生們謙虛坦然地接受自己，接受成功與失敗。

材料人網：您曾說退休后想去研究神學，為什么像您一樣的科學家也會相信存在比科學更有力的力量呢？

JBG：我不這么認為，我覺得神學的力量不及科學。我深信我們應該愛這個我們存在的世界，銘記所有幸運與不幸，敵人與朋友。對自然及其運作的科學探索形成了對萬物以及支撐它的事物的愛。但是我認為有很多東西是不能用數學的語言描述的，我認為隱喻、寓言也蘊藏了豐富的智慧。工程能夠教會我們如何創造，但是我們制造出來的機器是沒有感情的。重要的是我們如何去使用這些機器。如果沒有智慧，我們可能會摧毀環境和社會，有了智慧，我們就能在人口爆炸中生存，并且帶來和諧，而不是帶來敵對。

材料人網：您如何看待中國的電池研究？您能給中國科學家一些建議嗎？

JBG：中國在電池領域取得了令人印象深刻的發展，但是中國的多數研究都集中在如何改進已有技術，缺乏對革新性的技術的關注。我的建議是要找到真正待解決的問題，然后努力去攻克它們，即使是在取得重大成果之前要花很長時間。

材料人網：您從事隨機存取磁存儲器和鋰離子電池兩個領域的研究，那么您認為哪個領域對當前科技的影響更大？

JBG：首個隨機存取磁存儲器的問世對電子計算機的發展非常重要，即使高速晶體管的發展實現了用小型磁性存儲元件代替，使原磁RAM存儲縮小到辦公室的大小。鋰離子電池實現了微電子的無線化，很多人為了這一發展貢獻了力量。

材料人網：電池能量密度還能再大嗎？您對下一代電池有什么期望？

JBG：未來幾年電池會取得重大的改進 ，包括電池安全性，價格，能量密度，使用壽命，充放電速度等。我不確定能量密度的改進能否給出個“摩爾定律”，就像計算機輕量化那樣，我不能遇見相似的發展。

英文版如下：

John B. Goodenough Interview with Amber Zhang Cailiaoren.com

Cailiaoren.com: What you think of Lithium-ion batteries’ future? Will they be replaced by your latest achievement?

JBG: ?Lithium-ion batteries will, I believe, be replaced within three years by lithium batteries with a lithium anode that is plated dendrite-free replacing the graphite-anode of today’s lithium-ion battery.

Cailiaoren.com: ?What improvements does it need to power electrical cars with the superior battery?

JBG: Powering an electric road vehicle with a rechargeable battery requires a battery that is safe, low-cost with a high volumetric energy density at high rates of charge/discharge and a long cycle life. I believe all that can be accomplished with the Braga glass electrolyte, but the development of a low-resistance at a high-voltage cathode has yet to be verified and needs more testing. Also, the capacity of a cell with plating of a lithium anode on a cathode current collector requires more evaluation.

Cailiaoren.com: Will your Ultra-Efficient New Battery be the end of your career?

JBG: ??I hope I can work for another few years; we still have ideas needing to be explored.

Cailiaoren.com: How long will it take to make large scale cells after you working out with the cathode? What difficulties can you expect?

JBG: I believe that large-scale batteries can be on the market within three years.

Cailiaoren.com: What drives you to continue working at age 94?

JBG:? Scientific exploration is interesting, and the challenges to modern society in the 21rst century need to be addressed to avert catastrophe.

Cailiaoren.com: How did you start battery work?

JBG: My exposure to electrochemistry and battery work came in about 1969 when I was asked to monitor the development at the Ford Motor Company of their invention in 1967 of the sodium-sulfur battery, which uses a solid ceramic electrolyte and molten electrodes. I was challenged to find a better sodium solid electrolyte than the Ford sodium-beta-aluminum; with Henry Hong, we came up with the zirconium phosphosilicate, now referred to as NASICON for sodium (Na) superionic conductor. The first energy crisis in about 1970 and a decision by the U.S. Congress that my fundamental research effort was not appropriate for a laboratory funded by the Air Force made me decide to change my research from the electric properties of transition-metal oxides to energy materials and to accept an offer to be a Professor of Inorganic Chemistry at The University of Oxford in England.
Cailiaoren.com: How do you create a favorable environment to inspire students’ creativity?

JBG: There is no simple answer as to how to inspire students. The leader must be enthusiastic about his field of work, be without an ego while having ideas about research strategies and the interpretation of experimental results, treat those who work with him as equals, and be willing to give credit where it belongs with delight in others’ success. We need to compete against problems, not against people.

Cailiaoren.com: You are an art student in middle school, and got degrees in mathematics, physics, later on you study on chemistry and engineering, why you change your research interests? Do you think your experience is helpful in your research? And do you encourage students to change their fields?

JBG: My home and schooling before World War II was Arts-oriented, and it took me time to find my calling. My time in the U.S. Army during World War II was a break from this struggle, but I had come to the conclusion that if I had the opportunity to go to graduate school on my return to civilian life, I should study Physics. During graduate study, I decided I wanted to be a solid-state rather than a nuclear physicist; and on graduation, I knew I wasn’t prepared to be a professor of physics, so I accepted a job in an engineering laboratory that required how to develop a square B-H hysteresis loop in a ferrimagnetic spinel that could not be rolled into a thin tape as a ferromagnetic alloy. This choice led me into the field of magnetism and transition-metal oxides where I found my calling to study the properties of d electrons in transition-metal compounds, which required working with chemists. As I told you, in 1970 I was forced to change my focus, which led me to accept a position as a solid-state chemistry professor and head of an Inorganic Chemistry Laboratory. That position made me officially a chemist. On approaching retirement from England, I was offered a Chaired Professorship in Engineering at The University of Texas at Austin where I have been given the opportunity to continue working on materials engineering. My research has been guided by opportunities, collaborations with experimentalists, and good fortune. Experience is essential to the development of intuition; but listening to your inner voice, a willingness to expose ignorance with honest questions in dialogue with others and with nature, and a curiosity to understand others and the meaning of life can provide a basis for original thought and fruitful action. I encourage students to accept themselves, their failures, and their successes with humility and yet celebration.

Cailiaoren.com: You once said you want to study theology after retirement, why a scientist believe there are more powerful force than science?

JBG: I don’t believe that theology is a more powerful force than science. I do believe that we should love the creation in which we exist and have our being as well as all people, unfortunate as well as fortunate, antagonists as well as collaborators. The scientific exploration of nature and how it works is a form of loving both creation and those it supports. But I believe there is more to knowledge than what can be expressed in the language of mathematics. I believe personal examples and the art of metaphor and parable communicates the knowledge of wisdom. Engineering provides society with the means to create, but the machines we create are morally neutral. What matters is how we use our machines. Without wisdom, we may destroy our environment and society; with wisdom, we may survive the explosion of human population to bring harmony rather than discord between the different voices of humanity.

Cailiaoren.com: What’s your opinions on china’s battery research? What’s your suggestion to Chinese researchers?

JBG: The Chinese effort in battery research is impressive, but most of its focus has been on doing better what has been tried rather than focusing on radical new ideas. My advice is to identify what are the real problems that need to be solved and focus on these even if these problems require a long road of small steps before the mountaintop is reached.

Cailiaoren.com: You worked on the development of both random access magnetic memory and li-ion rechargeable batteries. Which would you say made the biggest impact on technology today?

JBG: Realization of the first random-access memory was an important step in the development of the digital computer even though the development of fast transistors allowed replacement of the magnetic memory element with an element that can be miniaturized to give more memory in a shirt pocket than the original magnetic RAM memory could fit into an office room. The Li-ion battery enabled the microelectronics to become wireless. The combination has empowered the average citizen, and many people contributed to this development.

Cailiaoren.com: Are we reaching the limits of battery energy density? What are your expectations on next generation batteries?

JBG: In the next few years, we should see a big step improvement in battery safety, cost, energy density, cycle life, and charge/discharge rates. I do not know whether improvements in energy density can provide a Moore’s law over many years like the miniaturization of the digital computer, but I do not foresee a similar progression.

【采訪后記】

三句話總結此次訪談重點：

1. 保持好奇心和求知欲。

2.人生處處存在著變化和機遇，不變的是追求真理與科學研究的興趣。

3.多做基礎性和原創性研究，多做可以解決實際問題的研究。

本文由材料人編輯整理，感謝材料人海外專家團隊指導支持。

研究方向：過渡金屬氧化物、鋰離子電池、燃料電池、氧滲透膜。詳細的說：他的研究團隊生長單晶并且合成新型陶瓷材料。進行化學和結構表征以及高溫、高壓、元素分析等各種基礎研究。從事能量儲能和轉換材料研究，高溫超導超、電子由局部變為流動時的超巨磁阻現象的機理研究，還研究開發了中溫固態氧化物燃料電池和氧滲透膜。